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Topic: Questions on Form SSA-821  (Read 1619 times)
sabster
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« on: February 12, 2012, 06:06:08 PM »

My brother went back to work (temp. job for 3 wks) this month (Feb 2012).  He has not worked since July 2008.  His approval for SSDI was Jan 2009.

So last week I called SSA (I'm his rep. payee) and told them he went back part time, and in a few days I received form SSA-821.  I may be over thinking this whole thing, but I'm worried they may question whether his is still disabled. 

They ask in question 1 to tell them about his work since July 2001.  I'm not sure why they picked that date.  Anybody know the basis of the date in section 1 of that form?

Question 4 on the form asks to report any month/year that he earned over $530 since 1/2001.  I believe the $530 figure is the maximum amount for Trial Work Period in 2001. 

Does anyone understand why they are asking for all this info?

I don't have his pay stubs for when he worked before getting approved for disability.  He lived with my mother his whole life, and when she died all that stuff was thrown out. 

I was going to just use the W-2 amounts and average for the year to get monthly amounts.  Do you think that will be ok, or do I need to contact his employer to see if they have pay stub info?  I have no idea if they would have that data any longer.  None of the monthly averages exceed $620.

Am I over thinking this thing??  I'm very concerned/confused as to why they are asking for all this info.

thanks for your insight/advice.

sabster
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Name: sabster (Rep. Payee for brother)
Location: FL (brother in PA)
Age at Application: 52
Disability: Chronic Undifferentiated Schizophrenia
Date Applied: 10/2008
First Approval/Denial Date: Approved 1/2009
Reconsideration Approval/Denial Date: NA
Hearing Date: NA
ALJ Approval/Denial Date: NA
Additional Info: Approved for SSI 4/2011. Did work assessment 2/2012; rec'd form SSA-821 to fill out. Rec'd letter 2/2012 says still disabled.
Dragon Fly
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« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2012, 12:29:54 AM »

Hi sabster...
Does he get both SSDI and SSI?
I am not sure why they'd be asking for info back to 2001? Could that be a typo and it means to read 2011?
Let's see what we find out from our more informed members and admins....
>;<
Dragon Fly
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"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." --  Friedrich Nietzsche
Name: >;<
Location: CA
Age at Application: 37
Disability: Complex PTSD, Major Depressive Disorder, Anxiety Disorder
Date Applied: October 8, 2010
First Approval/Denial Date: Approved verbally March 15th, 2011. Approval letter dated April 5, 2011
Additional Info: 2 weeks in QR, Received backpay April 4th, 2011
Kittyholic
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« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2012, 04:32:42 AM »

Hi again sabster:

The 12/2000 and 1/2001 dates in question 4 are really just indicating the date of change in regulations. It was probably added when the regulations changed, and has never been updated. It is very poorly worded, but the important point is how that question starts:

”Since the date you started working on or after the date shown in Item 1 of Part 1, above…”

The first statement on the form is:

”1. Please use this form to tell us about your work since --------->”

The prefilled date here is the date you should begin reporting employment. It is most likely the Established Onset Date (EOD), and you will probably only have one month to complete. The date prefilled on my form was 12/2008, which was my EOD. I returned to work 1/2010, and since I reported employment immediately, January was the only month to add in question 4.

You may want to consider consulting with a Work Incentives Planning Assistance (WIPA) agency. They are agencies that receive grants from SSA to assist SSDI/SSI recipients with working and benefits planning. Especially since you are out of state, you might find their assistance invaluable:

http://www.ssa.gov/work/wipafactsheet.html

I checked and see that Pennsylvania has two WIPAs. One of them is Goodwill. I would start there. They have an excellent reputation nationwide. I’ve read transcripts from one of their lecturers that I am very impressed with. If she is representative of the overall agency culture, your brother will be well served.

Pati
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The best way to pay for a lovely moment is to enjoy it. (Richard Bach)
Name: Pati
Location: East Tennessee
Age at Application: 53
Disability: Small Fiber & Autonomic Neuropathy; Sjogren's Syndrome; DJD
Date Applied: 02/19/2009
First Approval/Denial Date: Approved 10/26/2009
Date Award Letter Received: 11/17/2009
Date Back Pay Received: 10/25/2009
Additional Info: Assigned to DQB on 10/5/09. Approved.
JTB ~ Jane
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« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2012, 06:35:53 AM »

Thanx for sharing your Words of Wisdom, Pati...What ever would we do without you Huh?

Stabster, in case you haven't figured it out, Pati is our "Resident Brainiac" clever...that's part of the reason We Love Her group hug ...
Logged

Life is a series of problems to be solved...Abe Lincoln
Most folks are as happy as they make up their minds to be...Abe Lincoln
Name: Jane
Location: Illinois
Age at Application: 59
Disability: Spinal Cord Injury, Fractured C4, Left-side partial paralysis, severe spasticity
Date Applied: ... 7/21/11 > Re-Opened 2009 application
First Approval/Denial Date: APPROVED 11/3/11 ... BACKPAY from 11/2008
Additional Info: Rec'd partial BackPay 1/3/12...Balance of 36 months rec'd 2/13/12
sabster
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Posts: 65


« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2012, 09:12:08 AM »

Thanks for all your help.  I thought I had the PA-FL thing working well until he decided to try working again, now things are getting messy.

He does get SSI as well as SSDI, and most of the SSI is from the state of PA.  I know his SSI will likely be reduced, but I hoped any earned income will compensate for the SSI reduction.  I did not know I had to report his working to State Welfare of PA. I'll have to look into that as well! What I did not count on was all this SSD stuff.

Anyway...Pati if I could pick your brain a little more...where would I find his EOD date? The date filled in by SSA in question 1, Part I of form 821 is 7/2001. He worked from that date until 7/2008 which is when he stopped working. They have his yearly earnings on the cover letter from 2001 to 2008.  So I interpret question 4 as having to fill out any months he earned over $530 starting from 7/2001, which is basically every month!  Am I interpreting this correctly?

One more data point...when he was approved for SSD, I got a letter stating, "Based on the information we have, we can pay benefits beginning July 2007."  I don't know where that date came from, but he did get back pay? in Feb 2009, then started getting his monthly SSD after that date.

I plan to call SSA to get clarification, but based on other posts, not confident anyone will will call me back.  I will also try calling the Goodwill contact you noted...thanks
Logged
Name: sabster (Rep. Payee for brother)
Location: FL (brother in PA)
Age at Application: 52
Disability: Chronic Undifferentiated Schizophrenia
Date Applied: 10/2008
First Approval/Denial Date: Approved 1/2009
Reconsideration Approval/Denial Date: NA
Hearing Date: NA
ALJ Approval/Denial Date: NA
Additional Info: Approved for SSI 4/2011. Did work assessment 2/2012; rec'd form SSA-821 to fill out. Rec'd letter 2/2012 says still disabled.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 09:37:53 AM by sabster »
JTB ~ Jane
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« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2012, 09:54:57 AM »

Stabster, just a comment >> Your brother is soooo lucky to have you...
Logged

Life is a series of problems to be solved...Abe Lincoln
Most folks are as happy as they make up their minds to be...Abe Lincoln
Name: Jane
Location: Illinois
Age at Application: 59
Disability: Spinal Cord Injury, Fractured C4, Left-side partial paralysis, severe spasticity
Date Applied: ... 7/21/11 > Re-Opened 2009 application
First Approval/Denial Date: APPROVED 11/3/11 ... BACKPAY from 11/2008
Additional Info: Rec'd partial BackPay 1/3/12...Balance of 36 months rec'd 2/13/12
sabster
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People helped 5
Posts: 65


« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2012, 10:03:18 AM »

Thanks!  That's what my husband says!!  And I'm an engineer...so I over analyze everything, especially forms!!
Logged
Name: sabster (Rep. Payee for brother)
Location: FL (brother in PA)
Age at Application: 52
Disability: Chronic Undifferentiated Schizophrenia
Date Applied: 10/2008
First Approval/Denial Date: Approved 1/2009
Reconsideration Approval/Denial Date: NA
Hearing Date: NA
ALJ Approval/Denial Date: NA
Additional Info: Approved for SSI 4/2011. Did work assessment 2/2012; rec'd form SSA-821 to fill out. Rec'd letter 2/2012 says still disabled.
Kittyholic
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The Catwhisperer


« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2012, 10:15:15 AM »

Hi sabster:

I have to tell you that it sounds very confused to me. It is almost as if his EOD is actually 7/2001, and payment beginning 7/2007 is because that was as far back as they could retroactively go. Now that you have reported a return to work, they need to establish TWP months that were never established when he was approved:

https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0410505005

A person is only allowed one TWP in a lifetime. And, it does begin with the EOD - not the date actually approved. Once you know his EOD, it may help clarify some of this, and unfortunately you will probably have to call SSA to get that information. If the local office doesn't call you back, you might be able to get the information from their national toll free number (800-772-1213)

Please let us know what you find out.

Pati

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The best way to pay for a lovely moment is to enjoy it. (Richard Bach)
Name: Pati
Location: East Tennessee
Age at Application: 53
Disability: Small Fiber & Autonomic Neuropathy; Sjogren's Syndrome; DJD
Date Applied: 02/19/2009
First Approval/Denial Date: Approved 10/26/2009
Date Award Letter Received: 11/17/2009
Date Back Pay Received: 10/25/2009
Additional Info: Assigned to DQB on 10/5/09. Approved.
sabster
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Posts: 65


« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2012, 11:26:58 AM »

Regarding the EOD, that's my thinking as well...they are going back as far as they have earnings data for my brother.  And this is what is making me so nervous...that's a lot of years and he is likely going to have months over the TWP amounts during that time frame.

I called his employer to see if they have the payroll records and they promised to call me back this afternoon.  Otherwise I have calculate an monthly average based yearly earnings.  That method may not be helpful to his cause.

As for SSA, l left a message.

Bottom line in all of this...they make you very afraid to go back to work.  I've told my bother that after these 3 weeks of temp. work  not to go back to work until/if I can figure out if he is in jeopardy of losing his disability.

Thanks again for all your help.  I'll let you know how this all works out.

sabster
Logged
Name: sabster (Rep. Payee for brother)
Location: FL (brother in PA)
Age at Application: 52
Disability: Chronic Undifferentiated Schizophrenia
Date Applied: 10/2008
First Approval/Denial Date: Approved 1/2009
Reconsideration Approval/Denial Date: NA
Hearing Date: NA
ALJ Approval/Denial Date: NA
Additional Info: Approved for SSI 4/2011. Did work assessment 2/2012; rec'd form SSA-821 to fill out. Rec'd letter 2/2012 says still disabled.
Dragon Fly
Glitter Queen SSDFacts Doughnator
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Mood Swing Goddess of the West Tinfoil Crinkle


« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2012, 12:07:27 AM »

sabster...
You are so right.
And it's a shame.
It would be great if you could let us know what happens!
Wishing you and your brother the best...(and understanding hubby) Smiley
>;<
Dragon Fly
Logged

"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." --  Friedrich Nietzsche
Name: >;<
Location: CA
Age at Application: 37
Disability: Complex PTSD, Major Depressive Disorder, Anxiety Disorder
Date Applied: October 8, 2010
First Approval/Denial Date: Approved verbally March 15th, 2011. Approval letter dated April 5, 2011
Additional Info: 2 weeks in QR, Received backpay April 4th, 2011
sabster
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Posts: 65


« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2012, 02:01:55 PM »

Some follow up info...

I found this in POMS DI 13010.035, Section D:

"The TWP begins no earlier than the latest of the following dates:

The month the beneficiary files the application (or protective filing date).

The month that a disabled beneficiary becomes first entitled, or is re-entitled, to a Title II disability benefit."


So, having found that information I was feeling more assured that the income dating back to his EOD of 7/2001 was not relevant in his return to work.  

I waited to hear back from SSA and never did, so I sent the form in on Feb 17th with all the monthly income info dating back to 2001 and awaited a response.

I received a letter today from SSA...I copied relevant part in a separate response below with a few questions.

sabster

Logged
Name: sabster (Rep. Payee for brother)
Location: FL (brother in PA)
Age at Application: 52
Disability: Chronic Undifferentiated Schizophrenia
Date Applied: 10/2008
First Approval/Denial Date: Approved 1/2009
Reconsideration Approval/Denial Date: NA
Hearing Date: NA
ALJ Approval/Denial Date: NA
Additional Info: Approved for SSI 4/2011. Did work assessment 2/2012; rec'd form SSA-821 to fill out. Rec'd letter 2/2012 says still disabled.

« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 02:19:33 PM by sabster »
sabster
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Posts: 65


« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2012, 02:10:37 PM »

Here is the response I received today from SSA...


"We recently reviewed the evidence in XX XXX’s Social Security
disability claim and found that his disability is continuing. Here is some
important information about his claim.

The evidence shows that he has not worked in any trial work months.

This letter is only a decision about how XX XXX’s work affects his
disability payments. The law also requires us to review his medical condition to make sure he is still disabled under our rules.

His file will be forwarded to the Disability Determination Services in his state for this medical review. We will tell you if we need more information. We will send you another letter when that review is finished.

If he is receiving Supplemental Security Income payments, any decision about that claim will be sent in a separate notice."


So, I interpret the above as saying his disability is continuing based on the return to work info, but they must still determine if his disability will continure based on a medical review. 

Do you think I will get CDR short form next or will they just review what is already in his file, or something else? 

thanks,

sabster
Logged
Name: sabster (Rep. Payee for brother)
Location: FL (brother in PA)
Age at Application: 52
Disability: Chronic Undifferentiated Schizophrenia
Date Applied: 10/2008
First Approval/Denial Date: Approved 1/2009
Reconsideration Approval/Denial Date: NA
Hearing Date: NA
ALJ Approval/Denial Date: NA
Additional Info: Approved for SSI 4/2011. Did work assessment 2/2012; rec'd form SSA-821 to fill out. Rec'd letter 2/2012 says still disabled.
Kittyholic
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The Catwhisperer


« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2012, 02:55:23 PM »

Hi sabster:

The fact his file has been sent to the State DDS means it is a Full Medical review. Mailers are used to determine when/if diaried CDRs may indicate a Full Medical review:

https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0413004005

I'm not sure when your brother's diary matures, but based on the fact all this originated with his returning to work, I suspect this is a work-related full medical review:

https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0413010010

Pati
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The best way to pay for a lovely moment is to enjoy it. (Richard Bach)
Name: Pati
Location: East Tennessee
Age at Application: 53
Disability: Small Fiber & Autonomic Neuropathy; Sjogren's Syndrome; DJD
Date Applied: 02/19/2009
First Approval/Denial Date: Approved 10/26/2009
Date Award Letter Received: 11/17/2009
Date Back Pay Received: 10/25/2009
Additional Info: Assigned to DQB on 10/5/09. Approved.
SSDAdmin
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« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2012, 06:34:49 PM »

Sabster,

I agree with Pati.  It sounds like you have a few more steps to take to put this behind you.  I will help all I am able as I know how hard you work to help your brother.

Marci
Logged

I speak from experience not expertise.
Name: Marci
Location: Florida
Age at Application: 35
Disability: Arthritis, Degenerative Disc, Migraines, Foot Injury
Date Applied: September 2005
First Approval/Denial Date: Denied February 2006
Reconsideration Approval/Denial Date: Denied October 2006
Date Hearing Notice Received: October 2008 two weeks before hearing
Hearing Date: October 2008
ALJ Approval/Denial Date: Letter Received December 2008
Date Award Letter Received: January 2009
Date Back Pay Received: February 2009
Additional Info: Approved at hearing, no Attorney
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